Messy Discussion

[rimuspp]

Experiences are not universal.

I understand your point, but the systematic intervention in a lighthearted post for protecting is toxic “positivity”. Secrecy is related to being wrong. so, you are knowingly or unknowingly saying that “Since you are wrong, you got to hide” We are online, our safety is relative to our own online security, and safe spaces require a place to start.

We do have safe spaces; this is just one person asking for the simple question: “I want to meet more people” and shutting it down in itself and making it about oneself is irresponsible and selfish in my opinion.

Communities are about sharing, and using the guise of protection to limit this objective is in itself an act of psychological violence in my opinion, which is just as dark as any. The constant masking and the constant “you are wrong” implications are part of what makes this bad.

Is sad that the truly harmless request of connection is met with such reaction.

Edit: I might have to add, if a person is openly trans in a public space, is their decision and deciding for them is condescending and wrong, you don’t get to decide on the choices of others. I personally am Nonbinary, am I then making sure that my life is hell because of saying it online? That’s my choice, and as any, I will have to understand my own reality. but is my agency that is being used for it. This applies to any of you people that is reading it and might want to comment something about this.

Let people have their own agency, this in software or society is needed

[cor-draconia]

@npc1054657282

In the society I live in, the reality is the opposite: people actively show off their gender and sexual orientation, and based on that, they form cliques and attack each other

But, really, you don’t have to repeat that here. The moment, someone just revealed their gender, you started to attack us. Would you have acted the same, if someone had revealed that they are a cis man?

And in a classic mansplaining way. “I know better than you what is best for you.”

@npc1054657282

So I think online, hiding these irrelevant personal traits is actually very valuable because it allows us to communicate more freely.

Which is a very privileged look on the world. You can communicate more freely, because you can just assume everyone else is a cis man, so you can feel community and understood.

Women (and everyone not cis white man, actually) on the other hand, also assume everyone else is a cis white man, so they feel outside the community by default. (For a very personal trait we can’t just ignore, because it is just us, and you don’t have to ignore, because you can just feel like the “default”)

So, showing that there are other women around helps women to communicate more freely.

@npc1054657282

Or, the reverse, just because some members have the same sexual orientation as themselves, they might develop a certain positive bias and end up agreeing with someone on programming topics more because of that rather than the actual ideas. To me, that’s still inappropriate.

Or, just because someone posted a bunch of replies to a topic that is not at all about them, which they could just as well just have ignored, some people are now biased against that person.

You can’t interact with communities without revealing who you are. If you don’t want this, you should just communicate via gitlab issues.

@npc1054657282

I really wish everyone could just be completely indifferent to their own identity, at least on programming forums, because there’s really no reason for it.

@npc1054657282

and I also feel uncomfortable with the fact that my personal identity is being speculated about.

What? I don’t understand, why aren’t you totally indifferent to your own identity? Seems when it is your identity that is talked about you’re no longer so indifferent, are you?

So this only applies to people with other identities?

@npc1054657282

The toxic online society I’m in is more like a ‘dark forest’; [ … ] you’re very likely to be privately abused in an organized way.

Some people might say, that you are starting this here.

[cor-draconia]

@rimuspp

if a person is openly trans in a public space, is their decision and deciding for them is condescending and wrong, [… ]

Let people have their own agency, this in software or society is needed

This, absolutely this.

[npc1054657282]

@cor-draconia

But, really, you don’t have to repeat that here. The moment, someone just revealed their gender, you started to attack us. Would you have acted the same, if someone had revealed that they are a cis man?

Imagine, if there were surveys about whether someone is ‘white’ or ‘male,’ my attitude toward them would be the same. I really regret that you took my attitude as an attack. If there were any posts about men or cisgender people, I would definitely be equally opposed to them.

@cor-draconia

Which is a very privileged look on the world. You can communicate more freely, because you can just assume everyone else is a cis man, so you can feel community and understood.

Sorry, really not, I don’t think there’s any difference between men and women when communicating, and I often unconsciously mistake men for women based on first impressions. I realize I shouldn’t be gender-conscious about others and should try to avoid this kind of mistake as much as possible.

@cor-draconia

What? I don’t understand, why aren’t you totally indifferent to your own identity? Seems when it is your identity that is talked about you’re no longer so indifferent, are you?

I think my principles are consistent; I don’t want to speculate about or know other people’s identities, and equally, I don’t want others to speculate about mine.

@cor-draconia

Some people might say, that you are starting this here.

I’m really sorry that made you think that way. If this were a survey about other genders, my attitude wouldn’t change because of it.

[cor-draconia]

@lukeflo

However, since IT/coding/“computer nerdy stuff” is a domain very likely (still) to a big amount a domain publicly represented by (white?) cis-men, it would be very understandable if people not belonging to this group don’t want to identify themselves in public.

On the other hand, this is also the reason for non cis white men to identify themselves.

If we are not seen, people outside the cis white man group find it harder to join. Change comes with visibilty.

(And thank you for removing your post.)

[ericlang]

Shall we stop the delusional opinions and let people react on the first post?
If I was a moderator I would delete all (opinion) posts here.

[miagi]

Apologies Andrew, but I have to defend @g41797 here. They just stated that they feel uncomfortable with the topic. It’s their right to do so. I’m just too tired IRL that my opinions are wrongly taken and ment as offenses. I never intend to do that, even now. If anyone feels inhibited by other people’s opinion, I think it’s their fault. Even me. It’s my fault being too sensitive by other people’s own opinions about their own things. It’s different about personal attacks. I don’t feel comfortable with this topic as well because I don’t see the connection between these things and programming. But that’s my personal issue. I’d love to interact with women in this field as well but I hardly interact IRL with people in this field at all, so I think it was redundant for me to say that at all.
I think your response in this case was too harsh. That’s all

[vulpesx]

At this point you clearly are not interested in an honest discussion, these things have been explained a number of times, as have the contradictions in your “consistent principles”

---

@miagi

I don’t see the connection between these things and programming

Why did you choose to complain on this topic, and only this topic, why not any of the other non-programmng topics?

Don’t hide behind this obvious excuses, you’ve been here for most of a year and have said nothing of the sort.

[miagi]

I just expressed my opinion that Andrew’s response was too harsh to this person in my eyes. That’s all.
Edit: If you think I’m complaining about other things, you are mistaken. I just wanted to defend the person who I think was wrongly attacked. I never said anything bad nor will about any other person directly, cause that’s just not what I do. If subconsciously you think I did in any case, I apologize. It was not my intention
Edit2: I figured I haven’t said the thing I wanted to say correctly. If it looked like I did attacked someone anytime here, I must have done it subconsciously if I had even done it and I apologize for that.

[vulpesx]

You want to defend someone who said they were uncomfortable because a minority dared to socialise?

[Pixon]

I’m transfemme :3
Though I’m a bit of a lurker, not very active, I do use zig for things.

It kind of sucks that online communities are full of the types of people in this thread. If the topic makes you slightly uncomfortable, just don’t look at the thread? It’s not like anyone told you to reply, right?

[miagi]

Nope, I’m defending a person that just expressed their own feelings and got attacked for it. They just said they feel uncomfortable. Not the reason why in that sentence or anything else. Why demand an apology from them for that? I’m now speculating that Andrew implied something more from that sentence that was not being said. I don’t like when people imply things. I try to always say what I mean how I mean it, with out anything hiding behind it but that’s just me.

[miagi]

Let me try to explain in a different reply better. They said they don’t feel comfortable with this post. I empathize with that feeling, but might be for different reasons than that person. I understand that feeling, as a feeling. Why demand an apology from a person feeling something they feel? For example, If you feel bad or even good conversing with me, its your right to do so. I’m never going to say: “Apologize to me immediately for feeling the way you feel talking to me.” It’s just, Why would I say something like that? You are a human as much as me. You have the right to feel the way you want. It’s just your thing

[Pixon]

Shouldn’t queer people by allowed to say they’re queer and seek fellow queers without a bunch of people going up to them unprompted and saying that makes them uncomfortable? There’s a difference between feeling something and expressing it, especially when no-one asked.

[g41797]

I explained my reasons in this message to mods
https://ziggit.dev/t/regarding-women-trans-members-post/16114?u=g41797

[miagi]

Those topics are too delicate for me to discuss and I just avoid them. Yea, every person alive has a right to do what they want. I don’t want to say anything more or will regarding this topic. I have a feeling it might be taken the wrong way by someone somewhere. I just started writing here because I read that one person got a harsher treatment than I felt they deserve from no other than Andrew himself. I felt responsible at that point to reply something.

[npc1054657282]

@vulpesx

At this point you clearly are not interested in an honest discussion, these things have been explained a number of times, as have the contradictions in your “consistent principles”

I wouldn’t feel so frustrated if there was more discussion around my points instead of my personality.

@vulpesx

You want to defend someone who said they were uncomfortable because a minority dared to socialise?

Imagine if there were a survey like this, where the poster tried to ask on a programming forum whether you are white, or whether you are male. I would almost immediately feel uncomfortable, and I find it hard to imagine that you wouldn’t. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to feel uncomfortable about that. Since I can understand why someone would be uncomfortable facing such a post, I think, for the sake of equality, it’s best if any similar surveys about gender and sexual orientation don’t appear at all.

[socratesintroject]

this is unbelievable

[miagi]

Point I was trying to make, you were attacked prior to explaining your reasons. You just said that you felt uncomfortable by the post. I’m not diving any deeper than that. “What if-s” and other things. You said how you feel, and another person attacked you for it. I mean, I saw it as an attack towards you.

[socratesintroject]

noone is forcing you to answer. you are not being surveyed by this thread. in fact, this is not a thread for you. you are not only not required to identify yourself here, you are not even welcome

to be clear, i mean this to all men in general. hello to everyone else

this is a complete failure of the social premise because it got hyper scrutinised by the group it was least meant for, what am i reading?!

edit: these men’s-rights-activist style responses are as if participation in this thread has suddenly become a requirement before unlocking the rest of ziggit, like as if we are requiring all cis men to line up against a wall and be scrutinised here. NO. you aren’t being surveyed. this is not a thread about men. this was meant for (trans) women